AMY GALLO: You’re listening to Ladies at Work from Harvard Enterprise Evaluation. I’m Amy Gallo.
Assume again to your first job out of school. Mine was working as a program supervisor for a small nonprofit. And whereas I used to be extremely organized and good at transferring work ahead, a talent I’d honed as an undergrad in these torturous group initiatives, I used to be additionally overconfident and unaware of the extra nuanced abilities I wanted, like the best way to write an electronic mail that may get individuals to do what I needed them to or the best way to relay a choice the chief director had made to my friends. I didn’t have the interpersonal abilities that undoubtedly would’ve made me a lot happier and simpler in that job.
Why didn’t I be taught in faculty that getting the suggestions I wanted, constructing belief, setting boundaries are all half and parcel of success and development? Why weren’t these abilities within the curriculum?
With academia’s fixation on profession readiness, why are schools nonetheless graduating college students who employers say fall in need of their expectations in areas like skill to speak and assume critically? That’s what the Affiliation of American Schools and Universities discovered when it surveyed executives and hiring managers in 2023. And when NACE, the Nationwide Affiliation of Schools and Employers, surveyed HR administrators and managers in 2024, that they had comparable findings.
If professors and profession counselors and skilled professionals such as you and me don’t clue college students into the realities of labor, we threat dropping future leaders earlier than they even get began. Which is why when the organizers of SXSW EDU, the innovation convention centered on the schooling sector, invited Ladies at Work to host a session, we determined to speak about the best way to deal with these gaps.
Whether or not you’re educating faculty college students, parenting one, or managing somebody who simply landed their first job, I hope this episode provides you a clearer image of what early-career girls are up towards in these first few make or break years of labor and how one can assist. In spite of everything, all of us have a robust function to play in making these years extra navigable, equitable, and empowering for younger girls.
This dialog you’re about to listen to was taped reside in Austin at SXSW EDU.
Hello, y’all. How’s everybody doing? Good. So, I’m excited to be joined by two visitors who assume loads about this section of younger girls’s lives and what they should thrive once they’ve entered their careers. My two visitors are each Texas-based. Go, Texas.
Neda Norouzi is an structure professor on the College of Texas at San Antonio, and he or she helped create a student-led group in structure, the division that she is a part of.
Aimee Laun is the Director of the Texas Lady’s College Profession Connection Middle, and once more, thinks loads about, how will we put together girls for in the present day’s workforce.
I’m going to start out with Neda and Aimee. And I wish to ask, what’s a talent that you just have been shocked if you first began within the workforce that you just didn’t have? Nobody informed you was obligatory, however grew to become essential straight away. Neda, we will begin with you.
NEDA NOROUZI: I discovered loads, however I feel my predominant one … So, I grew up in Iran. And being a lady in Iran, it was a giant deal to be the great woman, being soft-spoken and quiet. So, being within the workforce in America, talking confidently in conferences was one thing that took me some time to get a deal with of. And even talking typically in conferences, particularly with consumer conferences.
Now, I used to be fortunate that I had a supervisor who was a beautiful lady and sometimes gave me the ground and would say, “Effectively, Neda, you informed me about your thought. Why don’t you share it with Mr. or Mrs. So And So?” However even then, I nonetheless keep in mind my voice would all the time shake, and I all the time doubted myself that I’m saying one thing incorrect or I’m saying one thing that’s not appropriate and I won’t simply know sufficient. And so I feel talking confidently was the primary one.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. However I assume you spoke up in lessons throughout college. What was the distinction?
NEDA NOROUZI: Really, I didn’t. I used to be the coed who would all the time sit within the entrance, take notes, and I’d by no means say something except I used to be requested.
AMY GALLO: And no professor stated, “You’re going to want to be taught to talk up.”
NEDA NOROUZI: None in undergrad, no.
AMY GALLO: Proper.
NEDA NOROUZI: I had a professor who informed me to take a category within the speech division. And that helped loads, academically and professionally.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. Aimee, how about you? What’s a talent you have been shocked to be taught was obligatory if you received into the workforce?
AIMEE LAUN: That is going to sound so easy, however probably the most spectacular factor in my first job that I discovered about was from my boss, Lisa Ortiz. She was very productive. She was beginning a enterprise, and I went to work for her. And she or he used a planner referred to as the Quo Vadis Planner, and it was lovely. It had a leather-based cowl on it. And inside, it had a calendar for taking notes and dates. And I noticed her utilizing that, after which she would ask me, she says, “We now have some deliveries coming in.” It was a retail store. “These dates and instances.” And I used to be making an attempt to maintain all that in my head. And I believed again to her, like, Oh, I would like to write down this down. And nobody ever informed me, when your boss is talking, you want to take notes.
And so I went right down to, in San Antonio, the Nancy Harkins Stationery retailer, and I purchased me a Quo Vadis planner. I nonetheless have that behavior in the present day. Planner, and I’ve received my calendar and my agenda and my notes and indexes. And so I feel girls observe different girls. That’s how we be taught. And so her educating me that greatest observe, simply by means of my statement of her, has been one thing that’s helped me to achieve success in my profession.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. For me, it was actually negotiation. And I don’t imply negotiating a wage, simply that just about each dialog in work was a negotiation, proper? How are we going to maneuver forward with this challenge? Are you going to take heed to my thought or their thought? What’s the funds going to be? And nobody taught me the best way to navigate the facility dynamics once they weren’t as crystal clear as student-professor. And I feel that was a factor that was actually shocking to me, is how a lot I wanted these negotiation abilities day by day, all day.
Aimee and Neda, what’s a query that you just’ve gotten from a present pupil or a former pupil that has indicated to you that they’re by no means ready for the workforce? Or that maybe they’re truly extra ready than you anticipated? Aimee, we will begin with you.
AIMEE LAUN: It’s not the questions they’re asking, however it’s the questions they’re not asking as a result of they don’t know what to ask. So, when educating negotiation abilities, which is one factor we train within the profession heart, they don’t know that they’ll advocate for themselves, that they’ll ask for a special workplace, a parking spot, the advantages, an additional day without work. They only don’t know the inquiries to ask. So supporting girls who’re youthful, the junior girls coming in, popping out of school, the extra we will advocate for them, be the one which asks the questions.
AMY GALLO: Now, you each are in academia now, and I assume most individuals listed here are comparable organizations, however you each have company expertise as effectively. How does that affect the best way you speak to college students about what they must be ready for?
NEDA NOROUZI: So, I labored in an architectural agency proper after I received my grasp’s diploma. And I feel I all the time inform my college students, faculty is type of this la-la land that we get to do what we would like and never essentially must take care of a number of the challenges that are available in the actual world, particularly relating to talking to purchasers, proper?
Structure college students, once they design a challenge, they spend 17 weeks. And so they’re, as they prefer to say, “I’m married to it,” proper? So, I’d all the time inform them that, it’s not about you, however it’s concerning the consumer. So, if you’re presenting your challenge, as a substitute of claiming, “I like this,” simply say, “That is how this constructing is designed to …” Proper? And that may assist you to observe the way you communicate to your purchasers. As a result of in case you’re telling your consumer, “This challenge was designed for you, and that is the way it’s going to answer your wants,” there’s a a lot greater likelihood that they’d rent you than the following particular person.
I nonetheless attempt to keep very lively in the actual world and do consulting work and design work, so then I do know what it’s that college students want once they get on the market.
AMY GALLO: Aimee, how about you?
AIMEE LAUN: So, I grew up in a small city in West Texas. My dad was a preacher, and my mother was a trainer. I believed these have been the one two jobs. And so I discovered loads, and I discovered it the laborious manner, simply by trial and error. I didn’t have a number of mentors on the time.
So, I labored for Philip Morris Worldwide. And I keep in mind my interview for that job. They despatched me, a small city, West Texas woman, to New York Metropolis. I’d by no means been in a metropolis bigger than Dallas. So right here I am going to … On a airplane for the primary time, seven interviews within the day, after which we went to dinner that night. Every part was a studying expertise by means of that interview. Even once we went to dinner in New York Metropolis at 10:00 PM, I used to be like, Wait. Actually? The restaurant was so good. Half of the issues on the menu have been in French. And so I did the, Let me see what Val, the one individual that I knew there, what’s she ordering? And I simply stated, “I’ll have what she’s having.”
I feel having Val there as a mentor and to say, Okay. If she’s doing this, I can do that too, actually did assist me. And I attempt to train that to our college students: discover a mentor, discover a sponsor, discover somebody you simply assume seems to be actually cool within the workplace and also you wish to be like them. And you’ll be taught loads simply from statement and from being of their presence. You could have these individuals in your life the place you are feeling like, I received a lot vitality simply out of going to Starbucks and getting espresso with this one particular person than I did studying in a coaching class. So, that’s one factor I took from the company world, that we will actually train one another to achieve success in these environments.
And I additionally discovered loads about workplace politics, that titles imply one thing. And whether or not you prefer it or not, it does have energy. And you’ll be well mannered, poised, {and professional}, and nonetheless highly effective. And I feel that’s what working in company America taught me probably the most.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. We did an episode about sponsorship and the way it differs from mentorship and the best way to get a sponsor. And it’s the episode I hear most frequently girls inform me, “I despatched it to my daughter” or “I despatched it to my niece.” As a result of I feel that can be a talent. Individuals are not warned that you just don’t simply go in and your work speaks for your self. You want allies. You want people who find themselves going to advocate for you within the group.
Let’s get into among the abilities. So, NACE outlines these competencies that they are saying are important for profession readiness. So profession and self-development, communication, essential pondering, fairness and inclusion, management, professionalism, teamwork, and expertise.
Interested by making an attempt to equip college students with all of these abilities is overwhelming. And but, we additionally know that listing will not be full. Once we take into consideration what we’ve discovered on the podcast and what we’ve discovered from our visitors and our listeners, there may be a lot extra. Negotiation, advocacy, the best way to steadiness distant work, boundaries, and the best way to take care of emotional labor, the best way to take care of bias that will get despatched your manner, and the entire issues we’ve already talked about.
So, I wish to get into what you’re doing to equip college students with a few of these issues that aren’t on the NACE listing. Let’s begin with negotiation. Aimee, particularly in your profession heart, how are you fascinated about negotiation abilities and giving girls the abilities they want, not simply to barter a wage, however to barter all points of a job?
AIMEE LAUN: You’re proper. It’s not all the time nearly cash. It’s about what else is on the market. And so we, at Texas Lady’s College, we’re very passionate concerning the pay hole, the gender pay hole. And so we train college students about that. For each $1 a person earns, a lady earns 84 cents. The one manner that we’re going to vary that’s by means of advocating for one another and thru educating one another. And I see there’s some males within the room—to not decide on you, however we’d like you to advocate for us within the office.
AMY GALLO: And we additionally want you to inform us what you earn as a result of we’re not even usually conscious of the pay hole. And so it’s actually useful. The extra data we have now, particularly from males, the extra we will perceive whether or not we have to do some advocacy, we have to do some negotiation.
AIMEE LAUN: Sure. And so I feel as girls, we’re taught to be respectful of our elders and quiet. And we’re made a job provide and we go into freeze mode, and we aren’t pondering of the following step or what we must be asking for. And so we try to train girls emotional intelligence and balancing your feelings in discussions like that that may be emotional, however vital. And so getting girls to advocate for themselves is the primary factor in wage negotiations, and likewise in different life negotiations.
NEDA NOROUZI: The scholar group, the Ladies in Structure group, negotiation is without doubt one of the matters we’ve had. A variety of college students who get a job, and as a pupil or as a latest graduate, if you get a suggestion, you’re simply completely happy. And college students usually inform me, “Are you certain?” And I informed this to 1 pupil, “In case you’re not doing it for you, do it for all the ladies who would come after you.” And she or he did. She received the whole lot she requested for.
After which in a while, a pupil who had by no means had a category with me got here to me in class and stated, “You don’t know me, however I spoke to this one that you had informed to ask for extra for all the ladies that come after her. So she informed me this, and I did too. So, I needed to say thanks as a result of I received the next wage, and I received time to spend with my mother, who’s not doing very well.”
So yeah, simply realizing which you could ask. And if they are saying no, they are saying no, you don’t lose something, proper? However that’s one thing that I didn’t know and makes me actually completely happy after I hear that college students are doing it now.
AMY GALLO: Let’s speak about one other talent, coping with bias and sexism. I’m so on the fence about the best way to deal with this query for the younger individuals in my life, significantly my 18-year-old daughter. On the one hand, I wish to inform her the way it’s going to be. On the opposite, I don’t wish to scare her. And I’m curious the way you deal with this with the scholars that you just mentor and lead? Aimee?
AIMEE LAUN: It’s not a subject that we put on the forefront, however when college students ask us these questions, we’re capable of have sincere discussions with them. However we try to return to, what does the analysis say, and base it on factual proof and speak about, Oh, listed here are the information about girls and males and the office. And even age within the office and what affect it may have on their future profession. I feel it’s behind their minds however not spoken about loads.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. I’m glad you introduced up age too as a result of that’s … Once we say ageism, I feel we regularly take into consideration discrimination towards people who find themselves older. However college students, one of many largest issues they face, one of many largest isms or biases usually is ageism. And compounded when that intersects with sexism will be fairly demoralizing, dismissive, undermining. So, I’m glad you introduced that up. Neda, do these conversations come up in your group as effectively?
NEDA NOROUZI: They do. College students have been saying, “If you’re a teen who’s simply beginning your profession at an architectural agency, you’re anticipated to know all of the expertise and the way all the pc packages work. After which you might be used for that.” So, what I inform my college students is, “Okay. So you may have recognized the issue. Let’s now discover a resolution for it.” So, we speak by means of it after which we discover articles to learn collectively and see what’s one of the best ways to take care of the particular state of affairs that they’re in, which regularly then begins a dialog in a much bigger image. After which we convey it again to our common assembly and speak about it collectively.
AMY GALLO: Once I take into consideration 22-year-old me who entered the workforce, the thought of discovering options for issues was not a talent I had. I used to be actually good at declaring issues I believed different individuals ought to clear up, however was not good at determining. So, I feel fascinated about how do you plan not simply that is one thing incorrect, but in addition how do you truly suggest what will be performed.
Equally, I used to be not superb at selecting my battles. I felt like the whole lot was price burning down the group for, which I needed to be taught in a short time was not the case. I wish to pivot a bit bit. It wouldn’t be a dialog at SXSW if we didn’t speak about expertise and AI. Aimee, how is your heart utilizing expertise to both perceive the abilities that girls want as they enter the workforce or to arrange them?
AIMEE LAUN: Let me come again to AI. I wish to say one thing about that final subject.
AMY GALLO: Oh, yeah.
AIMEE LAUN: One factor we do train … And also you’ve made a very good level of me at 22, and the way did I deal with this? We train the Circle of Affect and Circle of Concern as a result of we’re going to be involved about a number of issues within the office. What we have now to give attention to is what can we affect. And getting college students to assume to that degree of, what do I’ve management over, and let’s give attention to that.
However the profession heart at Texas Lady’s College, we use AI quite a bit. And we’re educating college students the best way to write prompts and the best way to edit what the AI generates for you. And if it’s in your resume, are you going to have the ability to speak about it in an interview? Or is that this one thing that simply sounded good?
And we’re additionally beginning to use some knowledge mining instruments to see, the place are college students going, not only for their first vacation spot, which has been a standard metric in profession facilities throughout for a very long time. First vacation spot, the place are they going? After which we finish. So, what we’re making an attempt to do now could be, the place are they at in 5 years? And the way did they get there? The place are they in 10 years? And the way did they get there? And with knowledge mining sources like Bureau of Labor Statistics and LinkedIn profiles and issues like that, we will begin to mine and comply with our college students a bit bit additional, even out to 10 years, and the way did they get there? After which use that for teaching college students as a result of college students assume they’re going to be the CEO in three weeks. And it’s like we received to indicate them this development, that it’s a profession development over time that’s going to make you profitable and proceed to be challenged and completely happy in your work. In order that’s been actually significant.
AMY GALLO: That’s nice. Neda, are you speaking about AI together with your college students?
NEDA NOROUZI: 100%. So in my lessons, since AI grew to become a factor, I launched it to my college students. I attempt to be taught it as a lot as I can myself, continually, each day foundation, proper? After which what I’d do normally for an task is I say, “That is your subject. Have ChatGPT write it. Carry it to class.” After which I’d have one-on-one periods with them and have them analyze it with me. “So, do you agree with what it’s written?” And that normally I see these gentle bulbs going that that’s not what I wish to say.
So then I convey it to essential pondering. I inform them to make use of it, whether or not it’s for fast renderings and ideation or giving it your summary and having the right title on your challenge, however don’t let it assume for you. In order that’s usually been my strategy to it as a result of college students are going to make use of it. Regardless if I permit it or not, they’re going to do it. So my hope is that I’d be capable of information them by means of the method of utilizing it to assist them succeed.
AMY GALLO: So we wish to hear from you all. When you’ve got any questions, you’ll be able to line up right here. Hello.
Viewers Member: Hiya. Thanks, girls. This was unbelievable. I additionally introduced my daughter, being 24 and a latest faculty graduate. So, I’d love so that you can give each my daughter and all people in your podcast recommendation on the way you steadiness coming throughout being pushy and aggressive to get that first job since you’re additionally up towards males that it’s virtually anticipated from.
NEDA NOROUZI: Yeah. Effectively-
AMY GALLO: Aimee, do you … Oh, go. Neda, you-
NEDA NOROUZI: Sorry. I simply received actually excited as a result of I utilized for my dream job proper out of college. And I despatched the applying in pondering, They’re by no means going to name me. Inside two hours, I received an electronic mail from the principal of the agency. He occurred to be on the town and had gotten the e-mail and thought, Effectively, I don’t have any lunch plans. Let’s simply meet with this younger woman. So I met with him. I ended up not working there. They didn’t rent me. However what he did inform me was communicate. After which I stated, “Certain. However how usually can I communicate?” He stated, “Contact us as a lot as you need till we inform you to not.” As a result of what he informed me was that, “We get a number of emails. It’s not private. It’s not about you. It’s nearly we don’t have time. However in case you preserve sending emails, in case you present up and say, ‘Hello. Sure, I utilized right here, and I used to be simply questioning if I may speak to so-and-so,’ then they’d know that you just’re truly extra than possibly the following particular person.”
AIMEE LAUN: And Neda made a very good level. It’s human to human connection. In case you’re not networking, you’re not working. That’s what we inform our college students. You’ve received to get on the market. You’ve received to make eye contact, shake palms, rise up tall, be a presence. In case you’re sitting behind a Zoom display screen ready for somebody to electronic mail you, it’s by no means going to occur. So in-person, human to human, we can not neglect that. In case you’re going to an affiliation assembly or a convention or a networking occasion, seize a pupil. Take them with you. In case you don’t know what pupil to seize, name me. I’ll join you. I’ve received loads on the listing.
AMY GALLO: As a mother, I hope my daughter could have professors like Neda and profession heart administrators like Aimee, who make invisible expectations far more seen. As a colleague, I do know I can try this for another person’s child by saying, “It’s okay to ask for that,” or, “Let me present you ways I deal with this.”
Somebody got here as much as me after the recording in Austin and informed me that one of many issues she has performed is to write down a letter to her youthful self with all of the issues she wished she had recognized again then. And she or he shares this letter with the younger girls that she mentors in her life.
So, if somebody got here to thoughts when you have been listening, a colleague who works with college students, a good friend navigating the early phases of her profession, or a fellow supervisor who’s mentoring a brand new rent, ship this episode their manner.
Ladies at Work’s editorial and manufacturing workforce is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Tobey Mack, Hannah Bates, Rob Eckhardt, and Ian Fox. Robin Moore composed this theme music. I’m Amy Gallo. Thanks for listening.